applied the test which Lord Bingham suggests, the result would have been different because it had been denied access to information about the precise circumstances. 125. Article 15 of the Convention does not compel us to adopt the test which Lord Bingham suggests, and there are good reasons – as the case of El Motassadeq so clearly demonstrates – for thinking that the terms on which information is passed to the intelligence services would make it impossible for it to be met in practice. Your Lordships were provided with a statement by the Director General of the Security Service which indicates that the problems of obtaining access to the sources of information from foreign intelligence services are just as acute in this country as they appear to have been in Germany. In my opinion the public interest requires us to refrain from setting up a barrier to the use of such information which other nations do not impose on themselves and which is likely in practice to be insuperable. I do not believe that the test which I suggest is one that in the real world can never be satisfied. Nor do I believe that applying the test which the Convention itself lays down in the way I suggest would undermine the practical efficiency of the Convention. I think that we should adhere to what the Convention requires us to do, while making it clear that the issue as to whether torture has been used in the individual case is of the highest importance and that it must, of course, receive the most anxious scrutiny. 126. There is a fourth element in article 15 which ought to be noticed, although the issue has not been focussed by the facts of this case. The exclusionary rule that article 15 of the Torture Convention lays down extends to statements obtained by the use of torture, not to those obtained by the use of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. That is made clear by article 16.1 of the Convention. The borderline between torture and treatment or punishment of that character is not capable of precise definition. As John Cooper, Cruelty – an analysis of Article 3 (2003), para 1-02 points out, the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture are unwilling to produce a clear and comprehensive interpretation of these terms, their approach being that these are different types of ill-treatment, more or less closely linked. Views as to where the line is to be drawn may differ sharply from state to state. This can be seen from the list of practices authorised for use in Guantanamo Bay by the US authorities, some of which would shock the conscience if they were ever to be authorised for use in our own country. SIAC must exercise its own judgment in addressing this issue, which is ultimately one of fact. It should not be deterred from treating conduct as torture by the fact that other states do not attach the -70-